Annie & Ashley

[Alana McGee]

Hi Alana, Kristin,

Here’s where we are in our training:

I have been using an 80%+ success rate and repeating hide set-up with minor changes a few times per session and watching how well Ashley is doing (watching for ease of finding and stress level). When this search is easy for her, then I will increase the difficulty of the hide, I add either more tins (hot or cold) or another box or 2 or other distraction items or expand the area. If she is taking time to understand how a new game works, I will make the hide easier and try building up again until we have a good alert rate and ease of alert = happy, excited puppy!

Indoors we use 3 hot targets, 6 boxes,etc, assorted toys, dog beds, rugs, chairs for hides in a 12′ x 20′ area. We have done 1 outdoor session last week and she found visual targets no problem. I was surprised how well she transitioned. I will add a leash as she did go bounding after a fly at one point. 🙂

I like to mix sessions, with a medium hide, increase the difficulty and then end with something on the easier side,
if needed, to ensure we end with a good, solid session. Then a game of tug!

For box alerts, she will try to get in or under the box (towel, etc) to get to the tin. When she gets to the tin or a loose sample, she drops down quickly and is very focused on the location of the scent. Then I treat/jackpot over the tin and we have a lot of fun while staying with the scent.

For above ground mushrooms, she will be able to see and touch the mushroom with her nose, it will be interesting to see if she tries to paw them. For some mushrooms, they can be under the duff – anywhere from a slight covering to have 3-4 inches of duff -more truffle like.

Am I on the right track? Any suggestions for improvements?

So far I have only done scent discrimination with blank tins. I wasn’t sure how/when to add scent distractions beyond placing other items amid the boxes. Do you recommend hiding distraction items under/in boxes? Do you have scents/items you recommend for this? General items around the house or actual scents like some basil, roses? It seems to me that it would be bad to put a distracting scent in a tin since we used tins as an aid to show this is the scent we are looking for.

We also developed a warm-up routine for training classes since there are so many dogs to watch (my mantra: she is a puppy and herding dog). So we play 2 puppy zen games to get her to focus. Basic obedience is going well and we are generalizing and proofing them. She has a good down stay ( distance 100 ft and I can go out of sight ever so briefly) and great recall.

I haven’t come up with a warm-up routine for finding mushrooms, Ashley sees the tins and is more than ready to go. But I think starting some sort of warm-up routine now will be helpful when we transition to the forest. Any suggestions for a warm-up routine?

We will spend the week working on the exercises and assignments.
Indoors: add more hot targets, more boxes and distractions and search area.
Outdoors: basic search with visible tins, then with boxes in a line, then changing the configuration of the boxes and search area.

[Alana McGee]

Hi Annie

This ? I like to mix sessions, with a medium hide, increase the difficulty and then end with something on the easier side,
if needed, to ensure we end with a good, solid session. Then a game of tug!? Is PERFECT. Always ending on a positive note is fabulous, and we like that you play tug as well 🙂

For the above ground mushrooms, let the alert evolve naturally. For obvious reason you won?t want her aggressively pawing the mushrooms in question, but say, things like matsutake that are under the duff, a tap would be fine. The nose targeting and staying in a down position near source are likely going to be very helpful for you.

The precision nose targeting with above ground mushrooms, isn?t quite as critical as you will be able to see what she found most likely, but you are on the right track, and sounds like you?re doing a great job!

Proofing with blank tins is great, and will be important for you again, as most of what you will be finding will have visual clues, and so we want to proof that Ashely isn?t just finding shiny objects? At this stage you could begin to add some distraction odors indoors. That can be some soil or duff in a box, other odors etc. Just go slow with how much you add a time and respond and tailor the level of difficulty according to how she is doing with it. They don?t have to actually be IN he boxes, but it can make it easier for you sometimes!

Anything novel will work, but for the sake of working in the field we recommend actually using things you find in the forest that may be distracting. I have used things such as deer or elk scat (if you?re brave) as well as things like basil or grass clippings etc. Other animal odors tend to be some of the more distracting scents. But remember, just go slow with what you add and adjust as needed.

We would suggest you change the order on this: “Outdoors: basic search with visible tins, then with boxes in a line, then changing the configuration of the boxes and search area.?

Go: boxes in a line, then change configuration, then just to tins; as the tins are smaller and provide less visual identification.

Just like with truffles you?re going to want to practice with real mushrooms at some point because Ashley may interact differently with the mushrooms than the tins themselves, so just keep that in mind for the future.

In terms of warm up for mushroom hunting we tend to suggest some simple targeting games. We also suggest, and we cover it I believe in FE530, that you begin to develop a hunt sequence or ritual around your hunting. Specific gear you use etc. You can make a big deal out of pulling a harness out of a backpack getting ready etc, so when you are out mushroom hunting for real, Ashley will know when it is working time as opposed

It?s helpful, especially for herding breeds, to have an on & off switch to some degree, and the hunt sequence and gear you have can help signal that.

It should be different gear than you use on normal walks.

You sound like you are doing great though, using lots of positive feedback and adjusting when necessary. Right on track 🙂

[Alana McGee]

Hi Alana,

Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully we will get some rain and there will be some
mushrooms to find and use for training at home. Right now I am using dried mushrooms
and I know that when we get fresh, we will need to do some scent imprinting sessions
with them. I am going to try making some oils, from what I have researched, canola oil does
not have a strong scent.

Wonderful idea on the foresty items for distractions. I have no problem with deer poop, bear not so nice. We also go to a local park for basic training (not scent) and the goose poop is a big distraction in the beginning ? the fresher the better! So I will go slow with that.

I just got a harness just for mushrooming so I will start adding that to our warm-up.

Thanks for the changes to our outdoor session order.

[Alana McGee]

So Bill and I have been doing a lot of talking about our training in
general and what we do when we mushroom including things we
should consider in training and how to adjust our routine in the forest
for Ashley.

Bill video-taped hide sessions today and that was really helpful.
I am working on putting notes together of our sessions.

Commands we are using:
find mushrooms! = begin search & occasionally to encourage
mushroom! (good girl, etc, lots of praise) = when she finds one
show me! = re-alert
all done! = done for the day

Are there other commands specific to the truffle hunt that are helpful?
Also, I am using commands in both english and german for this and
for basic obedience. She is doing fine with both.

Visual cues & verbal cues
I noticed that everything is being done with verbal commands. Do you ever use
visual cues? If not, why?

kind of a continuation of above….
Guided Training
With many of the mushrooms we hunt, there are places where they tend
to grow – such as near downed wood. We have some logs in our yard to
use for hides to mimic where mushrooms grow. Is it better to just let her
discover on her own these places or can we start by guiding her on where to search?
For example: pointing towards the downed wood in our initial training
We figure some of this will work itself out on it’s own when we are hunting the forest and
she is with us.

Rewarding Try
If the dog has caught the scent and they are a foot away or so, and they are zeroing
in on it,
1. do I praise that they caught a scent of the target (rewarding try) and then party when
they locate it and alert on it?
2. or do I let her alert on the target before rewarding/party – so I don’t break her concentration

I guess what I am looking for is, if I should engage with the dog when she first gets a hint of a target before she alerts?
If I engage prior to the alert, how should I engage without interferring with her process?
So far, our pattern has been, I walk in when she has a good find.
So when I walk towards her, she thinks she has a good find and looks for her treat (similar to what
Spring was doing).
I know to some extent it will depend on the team, but are there some things I could try?

For item 1: this seems like it would be good when we have increased difficulty.
For item 2: for an easy hide.

Down Time while Collecting
With mushrooms, when we are lucky, we might hit a good patch and be picking for 5 minutes or more.
Wonderful areas can be 30 mins and our record was one hillside for 4 hours of picking. WooHooo!
What is a good way to let her know she doesn’t need to search while we are collecting.
I would give her a ‘free’ command and allow her to just relax. I’m guessing she might watch us
pick and interact and we will make that fun. Or if she wants to take a break while we
pick that’s also fine. Any recommendations? We would like to start building this into the training.

An idea for gauging praise time after a find
We know sometimes it can take a while to get a mushroom out that has a good
portion underground. Perhaps the following will help people calibrate how long
to praise. Have a friend bury one of your training truffles or a raw quail egg or a
marble or two to the average depth of a truffle. Then you get to go in and dig it out.
Time yourself and see how long it takes while you are being careful. This could help
you determine a good amount of praise time after a training find. From our videos, I was
able to get a praise time from 45 to 75 seconds.

Adding New Scents
At what point do you consider adding a new scent?

Learning new scent – scent with a meal?
When I did our initial scent imprinting, I had the scent in a tin and we had a ‘working lunch’.
Ashley had to sniff the tin, then click and got a few pieces of kibble. This was a great
game. We still hand feed kibble almost daily just for the nice time spent together.
For starting her on new scents, should we use the same imprinting method and
then proof with blank tins?

[Alana McGee]

Having general questions here in this forum is fine we think, but if you have specific questions about a lesson going forward, we think it would be advantageous for you and other silver students to post in that week?s Discussion forum as you may not be the only one with that question.

In answer to your questions:

Do we use visual cues, seems everything is verbal.

We do use visual cues, but verbal cues just come more naturally from some handlers. I have absolutely nothing against using visual and verbal, and if you want to do that, go right ahead! I can?t think of reason why that would not be situationally appropriate.

Other verbal commands
Every dog is different, and I personally have slightly different cues/ commands for each one (some in other languages- to a dog, a cue is a cue, they don?t care what language it is). My personal list for all 4 dogs lumped into one list (this is likely missing a few): a begin searching cue, a waiting cue, directional checking (covered in FE530), a precision cue, emergency stop, re-alert, drop it (one of them does a mouth retrieve), look behind you (trailings- we cover this in FE530 I think), take a break, all done, ready, slow down, gentle etc? There are lots and the cues you have will evolve more as you begin to work in an actual forested setting and you see how your canine responds to various stimuli. Often times there are cues that are not directly ?truffle? related that apply in the field to move us around obstacles, like ‘please go around the log in that direction’ etc…

Each and every one of my dogs has different areas we work on in the field and in training. They all have different styles of working and some have varied cues that are specific to them.

The commands you have right now are great. Precision re-alerting is a key one.

Is it better to just let her discover on her own these places or can we start by guiding her on where to search?

We call this ?Directionals’, and we do cover it in FE530.

If you want to transition into truffle hunting at all, we urge you to be cautious with this as it is a more advanced skill because in truffle hunting you don?t want your dog to rely on you strictly for information.

Directionals can be helpful/useful, but we don?t want them to be a crutch. For mushroom hunting this is a little more relaxed, but the same issue applies. It is great if you can direct her to check an area you think likely for a certain species of mushroom, but you would like her to be searching independently, regardless. For now I would say it is fine to use the logs in hides, but refrain from actually pointing it out to her. Allow her to explore the areas on her own.

Most dogs pick up directionals VERY quickly, as in many other facets of life with us, we point at things and they orient themselves towards that object. Just be careful, you don?t want Ashley constantly looking to for the next direction.

Rewarding Try
If the dog has caught the scent and they are a foot away or so, and they are zeroing
in on it,
1. do I praise that they caught a scent of the target (rewarding try) and then party when
they locate it and alert on it?
2. or do I let her alert on the target before rewarding/party – so I don’t break her concentration

This is going to depend on Ashley. It is perfectly fine and advisable to offer encouragement if you can see her working on it (but remember to try to keep chatter to a minimum level).

In some cases we highly recommend this, as scenarios can be tough and we do want to acknowledge that the dog has located odor and is just struggling to pinpoint, and praise them for working on it, but it is going to be situational. If Ashley is so sensitive every time you speak she breaks concentration, then I might give her more opportunity to figure it out before you say anything. But yes, always party when she finds it.

You are right on the money- if it is a difficult hide and you can see the difference of when she is on odor vs not, yes, encourage and praise the searching. We don?t want you to constantly be chatting with your dog though. That is just noise.
I would give her a ‘free’ command and allow her to just relax.

Do you have this already? If so, that. If not, I would even recommend bringing a toy and playing a small game with her while you are picking and giving her a chance to relax. Again, this is what we call the ‘off button’. The problem with collecting (but this is again, going to depend on Ashley) is you don?t want her alerting on every mushroom you cut, so teaching her to take a break is even more critical. I commend you for building it in now, and yes we think that is a good idea. Just practice it!

Another way to accomplish this can be through gear changes and ritual. If you have a harness she wears for mushrooming, take it off during these times meaning she begins to associate the gear with working, and when it is off, it is free time.
I’m guessing she might watch us
pick and interact and we will make that fun.
That is fine too, and we recommend it. If she likes tug or ball, I would honestly suggest bringing a toy with you. Just remember to be aware of your surroundings and keep her close, you don?t want her injuring herself playing.

Adding new Odor
We cover this later in this or FE530, but in general we like to have an established behavior pattern/ chain of alerts etc before adding more odors. Doesn?t mean you can?t do it sooner, at a stage like now. Just make sure you then practice at all levels using all of the odors you hope to work with later. Also when introducing a new odor- start all the way at the beginning and imprint etc. You will likely go faster through the stages as the searching behaviors are already learned, but start all new odors with imprinting.

Your Idea on Timing, is a great one 🙂 We actually have a handler exercise during the course that is very similar to this.

Your imprinting with a meal is just fine. The idea is to pair with reward. Just make sure that the reward is of high enough value. Kibble doesn?t always cut it 🙂 That is basic imprinting though. Present, Sniff, click, reward.
QUICK REPLY REPLY QUOTE EDIT

[Alana McGee]

Hi Alana,

I wasn’t sure where to post. I will put questions like these in the general area
in the future.

Thanks so much – this is really helpful.

Visual
We’ve had horses so we are used to using body language and being quieter
and most dogs do so much better at reading movements.

I have run into some issues with body language this weekend, but we worked them out. More details in my hide reviews.

Verbal Commands
Thanks for the ideas on commands. They are helpful as we are continually
working on new commands in general. I love the ‘trailings’ command. My husband says following behind me is a great place to find mushrooms. lol!

Directionals
We will continue to let her find hides without any directionals.

Reward Try
When Ashley is close to a target she is very focused on the scent. I’m not sure
she would even notice me talking. I will let her continue on her own unless she looks for reassuance. We have been watching how she reacts very closely.

For picking down time
We will have her tug-tug and a toy.
Ashley has a ‘free’ command, we can use that a have a mat she can relax on with a toy for ‘off time’. I really like the idea of removing the harness, especially when will be stopped for a while.

New scent
December is when we would consider adding a new scent, so we have time.

Miss Finiky eater
Amazingly, many times she prefers kibble over wet food.
We have tried a number of wet foods.

For training, away from home, treats were a big issue.
The following did not work: hot dog, cheese, zukes, man others.

Then I spent a day making treats: tuna fudge, liver brownies,
smoked beef heart, smoked beef jerky (just a little garlic),
and smoked beef-liver jerky – I now have treats that get her attention!
Progess one super tasty treat at a time! 🙂

[Alana McGee]

Yard Photos

I am in the middle of turning this area into a play/training yard for Ashley.
Work is stopped waiting for pg&e to remove some trees. I was going to
have some scent training areas, but this exercise is great, Thanks! Yard plan changes
in the works! 🙂

We also have moveable fencing to make areas smaller as needed.

Here’s an overview of the area

overview.JPG

Details

limbsrocks.JPG

Expansion area

expansionarea.JPG

A natural duff area

duffarea.JPG

Iceplants – might be a little difficult

iceplants.JPG

My first post got lost. If this works, I will add the other pics.

[Alana McGee]

Week 1 Hides

The Good, The Bad and The Thankfully All Is Good

Backyard Hides

Hide 1: 5 boxes, 1 hot target. Ashley found the target quickly, full alert. Wonderful
Hide 2: 8 boxes, 3 hot targets. Boy did I mess this up….
These hides were on the cement patio area.
I forgot where one target was and did not check the box with her (big mistake on my part – big lesson learned – trust her nose it’s way better than my memory).
She did alert to the next target well, she then tried the first box again ( I did not look at the box with her as I should have) then she got frustrated. She then went on to new targets and came back the first box again. But during this hide Ashley she sat down and scratched ( her stress show).
So I walked away to kind of reset and she followed me. Then we came back and had a restart with 2 good finds. I then pulled a target from my pocket and used that to solidify a good ending.

When cleaning up, Bill opened the box I thought was empty and it wasn’t.
My new mantra: Trust Ashley, trust Ashley, trust Ashley, She hasn’t had any many false alerts and those were early on.

Stumble Upon Hide at Park

We tried a ‘stumble upon’ hide with Ashley at a local park in oak duff.
This is a park we go to fairly often. Bill placed the hide and then Ashley and
I came over and Bill and I just talked while Ashley did her usual sniff everything routine. You could see when she caught the scent about a foot away, when she was over the scent, she pounced down on it. Tail up, ears up – her normal alert. Big party, praise, liver brownies. We had her re alert by tossing the tin a little, then put it away and continued on our normal walk.

Wow! So cool that she went – I know that scent – pounce!!!

Indoor Hide – a day after the outdoor disaster
6 hot in the house with boxes and toys
4 tins hidden – 2 tins in boxes
Bill set this up – so it was a blind hide. To eliminate handler knowing where the target is body language.
It worked. 🙂
Overall this was a great search.

She started on her own as soon as she got in the area.
She was really good and persistent searching – the best I’ve seen so far.
She finds the hidden tins better than the ones in the boxes.
It appears that she catches the scent better just when passing by a hidden
tin vs a tin in a box.
When she gets a whiff of a hot target, her ears go from 1/2 up
to full up for just a second, kind of like a ding of a bell. It’s really quick and cute.
Hidden tins get a great down alert.
For tins hidden in boxes, she noses & paws the box; when she gets a good whiff of the tin, when the box is opened, she usually gives a down.
She is very engaged when we are partying over the tin. Lots of re-alerts.
If asked to show me, she does.
After we found a hide and it was ‘picked’ she went on to search more on her own. No redirection needed.
She would go over areas she had already searched and found a tin, but just sniffed and moved through the areas quickly.
Apparently the cat was in the room on a chair. Ashley went over and gave him a quick nudge to say hi in the middle of the hunt. She also picked up a toy during her search and carried it for a maybe 5 seconds, but dropped it and continued the search.

We repeated the outdoor hide this morning
on the cement patio
3 targets – 8 boxes

This search went well even with a big distraction. Ashley found 1 tin and then our other dog came over to join the party. When I stepped in to move Amy, Ashley pounced on a box (pure reaction) – so this is really a pattern between us that I need to be extra sensitive about. This only seems to be an issue with boxes. I re-cued Ashley continued her search and alerted just fine on the next 2 tins. We finished with our normal tug game.

I guess the Amy distraction will kind of simulate when we meet friends/people randomly in the forest. But at that point, we will give a ‘free’ command, since we usually stop to chat for a bit. As big as the Sierras are, we tend to run into people we know.

So as I write this, I realize I should have given Ashley a ‘free’ command. Moved Amy. Then started the search again.

I’m thinking of a way to test this movement/alert issue with tins. Maybe spacing the tins far apart and stepping into the search area while she is searching so I can see her reaction? Thoughts? Maybe before stepping in asking her ‘what ‘cha find?’ or something like that?

Things learned this week (and things that I need to work on):

Trust Ashley – she totally understands this game and her nose is awesome. My memory – not so much.

Check every alert. Check every alert. Check every alert.

Ashley was very, very persistent in trying to get me to look at a good box and was frustrated with me and showed some stress when I didn’t get it. But she kept engaged and had good finds afterwards.

Adding new boxes or containers to search increases the difficulty for her. The second time with that article is fine,

She picks up on hidden tins as she goes by, boxes require a nose right on the box.

She can distinguish a box with lingering scent vs. one with a hot target in it. I still need to watch her reactions more.

If I get too close to her, she thinks I’m coming in to praise for a find she pounced on the closest box. Even though she didn’t sniff it. I need to stay back and be more aware of my body position

Doing a blind search really changed how I reacted vs when I know there is a target.

I am starting to tune in more on her little signs of catching the smell.

When she gets a whiff of a hot target, her ears go from 1/2 up to full up for just a second, If you had a bell, the ding of a bell = ears up.

For her last indoor search here were some changes:

Her search drive and endurance made huge leaps (for the week overall)
She is starting to give distractions just a quick check and continues with the search.
She picked up a toy and carried it with her for 5 seconds while still very actively
searching and then dropped it when she caught scent. She was happy and just
grabbed the toy briefly. Interesting.

Other Stuff

As hard as it is to wait, we will try the new yard set-up this evening so Bill can video tape it for review.

One fun spontaneous hide yesterday. Ashley grabbed a hide box while I was making dinner
and bumped it against my legs. Normally she does this with toys. Dinner got put on hold and I set up a quick indoor hide. When we were done, as I was picking up the boxes, she ran over with a toy so we could play tug! She just loves this game.

[Alana McGee]

First off, videoing makes such a difference. It really let’s me see how Ashley’s reacting.
For me, I see what I did right and what I need to work on.

10/7 hide
Ashley was inside and Bill kept her distracted so she did not see where I was hiding targets.
We used the new scent area.
I walked around it a few times.
Dog distraction next door – Ally started barking as soon as we went outside.
Evening, warm out. A slight, slight breeze blowing from the north to south- it barely moved plant leaves
at about 3-4ft off the ground.
6 Targets (+ 1 accidental target)

This was fairly easy! Amazing!

#1 under the duff – covered
#2 logs & rocks – barley visible
#3 under a rock – covered
#4 logs middle – barley visible
#5 rocks against planter – barley visible
#6 log & small sticks – barley visible

I could tell she found each target be scent and not visually.

She found # 1 right away – running along fence to see Ally. Caught the scent and followed her nose.
She forgot all about Ally next door. Alerted and stayed with alert despite Ally barking just on the
other side of the fence. Then she went nose to nose with Ally through a knothole. She then located a few
hides bouncing between them with a soft quick alert ( I was waiting for a stronger alert – I need to change that
since this was a new environment. I know I wouldn’t react that way in the forest. Mom needs more training.)
She then went back to each one and gave a good alert with a quick visit with Ally in between.
At one point, she caught the scent of the open jars that I keep the tins in about 8 ft away on a table and alerted
on those. Bill and I were in disbelief that she smelled those and laughing because Ashley was just so happy
to find them!
She got close to #5 at one point but the big plant was a block and there were other targets.
She was done after 6 finds. Something along the back fence caught her attention – probably deer.

I don’t need to recue her to start after a hide.
#3 was a bit of a challenge – under the rock. I did get down and help her with this one.
For future hides, I will get on the ground with her and look with her more often.
She takes a break for distractions them comes back to searching on her own.

I’ve noticed if Ashely can not get close enough to a target, her alert changes to pawing.
She only gives a down when she can really do a paw touch and has room to lay down.

When she searches, she goes back to places she found a hide and does a quick sniff and
just keeps moving to find more.

Where I need to improve
I should have praised quicker for her just getting over them since this was such a new environment.
Get on the ground and search for tough ones with her.
Pay more attention to her searching pattern.

Training Plan for This week

I think the biggest thing to work on is expanding the area.
3-5 Hot targets
Mixed Visual Targets: Partially Hidden & Hidden

Hides that I place:
Start adding hides in the to expansion area and the rosemary.
After that add hides in the iceplant.
A separate search in the natural duff area. It’s on the other side of the yard.

Blind Hides: as we can set them up.

Any recommendations for improvement based on the yard and searches of this last week?
The 2 previous posts.

Any suggestions for this weeks hides?

[Alana McGee]

GAH!

My post to you just got erased… ugh.

Ok, to briefly summarize again:
I’ve noticed if Ashely can not get close enough to a target, her alert changes to pawing.
She only gives a down when she can really do a paw touch and has room to lay down.

This is common, just be aware of the situation in the field, she may offer a variety of alerts based on environmental factors.

It looks like you guys are doing great and are right on track. Your observations about your behavior as a team seem very astute, and your training plan looks good. Did you have specific questions about the training? It sounds like you guys are doing great.

Just remember to not try to go too big too soon in terms of area. slowly build, and always have that extra target on you so you can manufacture success if you want!

Your yard is full of fantastic hiding spaces with different elements. It looks like a great environment for a variety of searches. It also offer you a lot of different environments to hide targets to start building Ashley’s confidence even more, and yes you are right, remember to trust!!

[Alana McGee]

I understand… I have had trouble with a post also.

It appears Ashley’s alert is different outside – and I am now responding better and I need to
be more flexible to her alerts as we change training scenarios. Good to know this is a normal
part of the training.

I am expanding our search area slowly. I walk all around the yard, but she is tracking me for sure.
But for right now, it seems to be helping her expand her search area and that’s a good thing.
She has no trouble sniffing like crazy when we go to natural areas.

I am so pleased with how she is doing. I’m the one who needs training.

Thanks for all your help 🙂

[Alana McGee]

You say “Tracking you for sure”…

I say because we’d like to know more: How do you know that? Does she follow your actual track? If this is the case you need to be extra careful to put your scent all over the dang place and touch lots of things and walk around AFTER you have put the targets out. If this is something she is doing and following it to odor, we want to proof for it- and depending on how strict she follows it, we may suggest other handling practices of odor.

Also- another point about the alert in different environments, because I just made a post to Alyssia on it as well: Some dogs don’t love to push through or under physical stimuli and will offer different alerts based on that in those scenarios.

It makes more sense if you go read that post, as you can then relate it to your specific situation and what you are seeing with Ashley (since we can’t see you)- but different dogs are put off by different stimuli.

As I mention in the post to Alyssia, one of my own dogs is put off by things that touch her back because she has a low head carriage and doesn’t like to be surprised when branches her head fits under then touch her back. It changes her alert in these scenarios. Often times, if she actually ‘sees’ the environment before she follows her nose in, she will offer what I consider to be her less precise distance alert until I ask for a more specific behavior.

Alerts evolve. Remember that too. What you start with now will likely not be your ending chain behavior. We recommend students let the alert evolve naturally, with guidance and encouragement when possible, but like Kristin’s Cash and his ‘bark’ when he is on odor, that evolved because Cash likes to bark to communicate 🙂

The first step is in recognizing when this occurs, perhaps why and then noticing the differences in energy level, and confidence in different scenarios. Then you can begin to pick up on subtle clues and body language that also alert you to this (pun not intended), and then, you can try to alter behaviors to make it more obvious, or you have just succeeded in furthering your own relationship and communication with one another. It truly is a partnership, and each party has to be able to read and understand the other.

[Alana McGee]

Hi Alana,

I hope you had a great time at NAMA.

You say “Tracking you for sure”…

I say because we’d like to know more: How do you know that? Does she follow your actual track? If this is the case you need to be extra careful to put your scent all over the dang place and touch lots of things and walk around AFTER you have put the targets out. If this is something she is doing and following it to odor, we want to proof for it- and depending on how strict she follows it, we may suggest other handling practices of odor.

Also- another point about the alert in different environments, because I just made a post to Alyssia on it as well: Some dogs don’t love to push through or under physical stimuli and will offer different alerts based on that in those scenarios.

It makes more sense if you go read that post, as you can then relate it to your specific situation and what you are seeing with Ashley (since we can’t see you)- but different dogs are put off by different stimuli.

As I mention in the post to Alyssia, one of my own dogs is put off by things that touch her back because she has a low head carriage and doesn’t like to be surprised when branches her head fits under then touch her back. It changes her alert in these scenarios. Often times, if she actually ‘sees’ the environment before she follows her nose in, she will offer what I consider to be her less precise distance alert until I ask for a more specific behavior.

Alerts evolve. Remember that too. What you start with now will likely not be your ending chain behavior. We recommend students let the alert evolve naturally, with guidance and encouragement when possible, but like Kristin’s Cash and his ‘bark’ when he is on odor, that evolved because Cash likes to bark to communicate 🙂

The first step is in recognizing when this occurs, perhaps why and then noticing the differences in energy level, and confidence in different scenarios. Then you can begin to pick up on subtle clues and body language that also alert you to this (pun not intended), and then, you can try to alter behaviors to make it more obvious, or you have just succeeded in furthering your own relationship and communication with one another. It truly is a partnership, and each party has to be able to read and understand the other.

Ashley followed my track to the area. I walked all over the area. In one particular place she did go up where I had walked up. So maybe a better description is that she followed part of my track and then searched and during the search she picked up my track breifly.

It appears, I need to touch more, walk more and do it AFTER placing tins (not just during placement). I was not proofing the area enough. Two well proofed hides this weeked showed she was not tracking.
I will set up another smaller hide area and walk around it a bunch including a larger area near it with some definite paths to see if I can get an idea of how much she is tracking. We will video tape both me (or Bill) placing the hides and proofing tracks and Ashley’s search – that should give us a good idea if she is tracking or not.

10/11 outdoor search
70 degrees, light breeze. On leash. New place. 30′ x 20′ area. 3 hot coverd targets.
Today, we were at an outdoor survival skills class at a friends home put on by our mushroom club, (we made our first fires with a bow drill!). Towards the end of class Bill put out a blind hide of 3 targets for us to search. A number of people had walked through this area. Bill walked around a huge wood pile and started placing targets. He walked the entire area and even touched a lot of the ground – double checking where he placed a hide. All tins were hidden under 2-4 inches of oak duff. Then we let the tins cook for at least 5 minutes.

Ashley hit scent and nose down and right to a tin. Then the group, (8 people) unexpectedly, walked past us to get more tinder. Ashley followed the group and we waited. As everyone came back towards the hides, she got right back to search mode, She walked past a tin and as she got 1 ft down wind of it, she turned and got right on it. For 3rd tin, here she might have been following the tracks of the group of people who just walked through – but my impression was she was more in mushroom sniff mode – she was downwind of the hide. She was at least 8 ft to the side and caught the scent and tag!
Consistent Alert sequence: Find tin, paw tin out of the duff (& downed 1 or 2 times), treat, re-alert with a down. I am also changing the reward a bit, to a mix with more praise and petting than treats.

10/12 outdoor search. 85-90 degrees. no real wind.
On Sunday we tried an expanded area.
We had limited time, so she did not get her usually 10-15 minutes get your energy out mode first.
We have never searched there before – this is a big backyard play place.
We spread the targets out. Proofed the area.

I know this is not a great search method for truffles, but for mushrooming this is exactly what we will
be doing. I just walked around like I would do if I were looking for mushrooms. She was a little stressed in the beginning because she wanted to play and I wasn’t engaging with play enough. We let her run around as she wanted. When she caught scent, she found her first hide in just over a minute. Then we had about 5 minute of running and playing. Then she was on it – the next 5 tins took about 7 minutes. I did direct her by where I was walking. Followed by a nice game of tug and fetch!

During her play, she ran around and got general sniff of the area. It seemed like she was getting general ideas for where at least 4 tins were. When she got down to really finding, she was just right on them one after another. She would get within 5-10 ft of the target, then straight to it like she knew where it was. More searches needed to confirm.

What I really liked about this hide is that we were really working together . The walking and/or larger space really changed the dynamic. As she searched, she would look over to check-in occasionally.
Very Nice for both of us.

Observations for this week

If I understand what you are saying:
Ashley alerts, I react to her alert and Ashley is watching how I alert to her alert. Makes perfect sense!

I’ll watch how different environments affect her during searches. Normally, in casual sniff mode, light to meduim brush cover, etc does not bother her.

After watching a video, when the target is in heavy cover, she really works the area gets over the target, then when I come up she moves away. I asked her to show me and she went in and pinpointed it and pawed it. This is more cover than we would normally find mushrooms in. I’ll adapt my hiding place to be more accurate of a real find. I need to practice few more times like this and watch both of our reactions. For me, I’m going to try asking her if she found something and get in with her to find the target.

Overall, when the target is in heavy cover, she finds it and if I alerted then she waits for me to get
it out. If the cover is medium or low, she will paw and down if room. It appears she is just adjusting her alert for the conditions.

Ashley can speak on command. I would like to have her bark for a find. Bill prefers she doesn’t bark. We will be duking it out on this one. 🙂 My other consideration is if I want her to bark for my low sugar alerts. My understanding is that most dogs will automatically up their alerts if you do not respond to the initial low sugar alert – with pawing and barking etc. More research and talk with our trainer in the works. We are not training for sugar until we are done mushroom/truffle training.

[Alana McGee]

walk more and do it AFTER placing tins (not just during placement).
YES do this.

The outdoor survival skills class sounded fun! and VERY useful.

It is perfectly fine to fade cookies/ food rewards, You know Ashley best. Just do have her still have the same level of excitement with the reward process.
10/12 outdoor search. 85-90 degrees. no real wind.

This is an incredibly hard scenario. Heat, with that much of it– odor rapidly rises and plumes over the dog?s head. The dog basically has to be right on top of a target to get it. No wind, generally means it goes straight up. Just fyi.
During her play, she ran around and got general sniff of the area.
As we have mentioned on some other threads, this is perfectly ok, and encouraged. Many dogs will work more effectively and efficiently if they are given a chance to explore their environment.

As for the speaking command during the alert? Will be curious to see who wins that battle!
I come up she moves away.
This sounds like what we call ‘pressure?. It depends on how fast you are moving in etc. Just be sensitive to it. It is great she came back in, but just be aware that she may be uncomfortable with you coming in from whatever angle you did that. It may not be the case, a little hard to tell without seeing, but just be aware.
I need to practice few more times like this and watch both of our reactions. For me, I’m going to try asking her if she found something and get in with her to find the target.
This is a good idea, just be aware of ?when? she is backing away. Is it because you suddenly are there?
It appears she is just adjusting her alert for the conditions.
This is great! Alerts will evolve based on environmental conditions, so that?s great!

My understanding is that most dogs will automatically up their alerts if you do not respond to the initial low sugar alert – with pawing and barking etc.
This is generally a rule with shaped behaviors, & with dogs who understand shaping (not all do- you have to train that!), but you want to be very specific when dealing with things like blood sugar etc, so your local trainer who is helping with that would be the best source for that.

The other thing we suggest you do- and we do this later for truffles, but for mushrooms it will be a tad different. Get some fruit bodies and have them on top of the ground. Does her alert change? See if you can notice differences.

[Alana McGee]

Thanks Alana for your wonderful insights.

I did not realize the hot with no wind would be so difficult. But that does explain why she really had to work to find a particular hide.

We had wonderfully cool, cloudy, windy!!! conditions yesterday. She looked so happy running along and all of a sudden catching scent everywhere and she was able to pinpoint all targets very quickly.

I’ll pay more attention to how I come in. She only backs off when she can’t get close to the smells due to height or heavy plant coverage. I will test with a hide up in a planter. Click when she is standing by it, then come in slowly and help her find it and see how that does. Watching the last video of Speed with the pawing at the branch in the way is very similar to what Ashley is doing (without the pawing). But, if Ashley catches another scent she goes to the other scent. On the upside, she does return to the difficult hide and does her modified alert again and even pawed once – jackpot! big party!!!

We will go out this weekend and see if we can find some fresh mushrooms. It will be fun to see how she reacts to a real mushroom.

[Author]

Posts